Talk:Irreducible complexity

Biased wording in the section "Argument from ignorance"

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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It says in the page that "the false assumption that a lack of knowledge of a natural explanation allows intelligent design proponents to assume an intelligent cause, when the proper response of scientists would be to say that we don't know, and further investigation is needed." That response is a little too vague because it seems to suppose that the default position is to believe evolution, assuming that with a lack of information, only evolutionary theory is true. However the reverse is also true; a lack of knowledge about an intelligent cause does not mean evolutionary theories are definitely true. If there is an lack of sufficient knowledge on both sides, then neither side can be assumed. The article gives the impression that the proper response of scientists is to only look into the evolutionary solution to the problem, and that further investigation doesn't include trying to gain more knowledge on theories of an intelligent cause. There are still unexamined theories of intelligent design that have never been scientifically studied. For example, what if a deity is waiting for some specific event to take place before they contact humans. Or what if they had contacted humans previously many times but those humans ignored them so they are waiting until some event in human affairs changes our perception of them. In the 6,000 years of human history, many religions have claimed contact with a deity that eventually stopped. What proof do we actually have that they didn't have contact with an intelligent designer? 2600:1700:8830:8DF0:696B:1248:EE79:5794 (talk) 15:54, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Your logic is different from how reliable sources see it. It does agree with unreliable sources. Wikipedia prefers the reliable ones; see WP:RS. --Hob Gadling (talk) 16:20, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

It is still a biased statement to imply that without enough information, only evolution could be true. 2600:1700:8830:8DF0:696B:1248:EE79:5794 (talk) 16:30, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Nobody uses that logic. Evolution is accepted by science because there is heaps of evidence for it. Creationists, including ID proponents, only have the bad reasoning "I do not understand this, therefore God must have done it" - which only works based on the unspoken assumption "I am so smart that only God can prevent me from understanding something".

Regarding bias: Wikipedia is a mainstream encyclopedia and biased towards science and against bullshit. See WP:FRINGE and WP:YWAB. --Hob Gadling (talk) 17:04, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Quite a lot of Evolutionary theory is rewritten every decade because there are so many flaws, and they keep finding more. Evolution bias is far stronger than Creation bias, for example, Agnostic people believe that it could go either way, but Evolutionists are firm believers even when theories of Evolution are proven wrong. How is that any different from Creationists believing when you think they are proved wrong, even though the only evidence you have for a lack of God is that you don't have his phone number?

Just because someone isn't talking to you doesn't mean they don't exist. Like how if I stopped talking to you, and other people don't believe I exist because the only proof you have of my existence is this comment, but they claim that because this comment is old and could have been written by you on an alternate account of yours, so this comment could be fake. Therefore I don't exist. I am just you arguing with yourself.

I thought Wikipedia was supposed to be unbiased. I guess I was wrong. 2600:1700:8830:8DF0:40A3:A562:1056:2364 (talk) 10:53, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, Wikipedia is biased against bullshit. See WP:YWAB. --Hob Gadling (talk) 12:47, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Definition of Bullshit: "stupid or untrue talk or writing; nonsense."

Evolution is untrue. Whatever version of Evolution you currently believe in was probably already disproven by some scientist somewhere, but you continue to believe it? That is a serious bias. I don't think you should edit Wikipedia. 2600:1700:8830:8DF0:40A3:A562:1056:2364 (talk) 14:00, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

"some scientist somewhere" is not a reliable source for Wikipedia purposes.

Evolutionists are firm believers... -- You are making up positions to argue against, a familiar tactic, but unpersuasive and ineffective. Just plain Bill (talk) 15:07, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Cilia vz. flagella?

@Markbassett: I'm going to downgrade the subsection on cilia, which you introduced six years ago. I think that this rather is (and already then was) part of the discussion in Irreducible complexity#Flagella, which immediately precedes (and preceded) your addition. I therefore shall insert 'your' subsection as a part of that, and hope that you agree.

If you disagree, please feel free to revert my edit (but, if so, please, also consider a clarification of the difference of the two subjects)! Regards, JoergenB (talk) 21:11, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

User:JoergenB Thank you for notifying me. It's more about what have been named as separate examples with separate content be shown separately than whether Cilia otherwise seem similar to Flagella.

I will revert back to having it separate as it was created for the structural issue of cilium is shown earlier in article as a separate example. The History section Intelligent Design lists examples from Behe at "... "Molecular Machines" going into detail about cilia before saying "Other examples of irreducible complexity abound, including aspects of protein transport, blood clotting, closed circular DNA, electron transport, the bacterial flagellum, telomeres, photosynthesis, transcription regulation, and much more." (Note "Other", where Behe phrases as non-cilia examples things including bacterial flagellum.) Then later the History section Consequences says "Behe's original examples of irreducibly complex mechanisms included the bacterial flagellum of E. coli, the blood clotting cascade, cilia, and the adaptive immune system." (It is unclear in article on what is meant by "originally" or where that list comes from, but it is listing them as two different examples.)

I agree that clarity on details of what was said for claimed examples would be nice, but the section still seems to be at an earlier stage of not clear on what are the claimed examples to show. Cilia appears in both lists so I made it a subsection. I'm viewing it that first the Claimed Examples section should have subsections for the more prominent examples claimed to be IC, and exactly what the content is said for each would be a sub-concern as one cannot have such without a section for it. (Also, the flagellum example section would read oddly if it a first flagellum paragraph has a paragraph talking cilium stuck in before a paragraph resuming flagellum phrasing.) I'm not too concerned on how much of the Behe text one wants to include in each example. The difference between the Cilium example and Flagellum seems ultimately the same narrative one as the difference of flagellum from clotting -- that Behe is detailing different mechanisms and calling them out as different examples.

Cheers Markbassett (talk) 06:12, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

@Markbassett: Thanks for the explanation! As far as I understand, your main point is that this article is about the theory named "irreducible complexity", and that its structure therefore (at least in the Claimed example section) naturally should exhibit the main points put forward by its main theoretical proponent (i. e., Behe). Thus, and since Behe treated bacterial flagella and eucaryote cilia as different examples, they also should have separate subsections. Is this an approximately correct understanding of your argument?

If so, I appreciate your point. However, neither the main article Evolution of flagella, nor the present version of the subsection Irreducible complexity#Flagella, adheres to this structure. The main article treats eucaryotic, bacterial, and archaeal "flagella" in separate sections. (Since these three structures presently are considered as non-analogous, this is rather reasonable.) The section about the eucaryotic flagellum starts

There are two competing groups of models for the evolutionary origin of the eukaryotic flagellum (referred to as cilium below to distinguish it from its bacterial counterpart). Recent studies on the microtubule organizing center suggest that the most recent ancestor of all eukaryotes already had a complex flagellar apparatus.[reference omitted]

(As you can see, this treats "cilia" as a synonym for "eucaryotic flagella".) The section continues with explanations of the probable common origin and evolution of the cilia, according to the presently favoured theories. (Whether or not these theories hold, their existence refutes Behe's opinion that the cilium were "irreducibly complex", since they exhibit one way the cilium may have developed from simpler systems.)

The subsection Irreducible complexity#Flagella of the article under discussion now has approximately the same structure, except for glossing over the "eucaryotic flagella" rather quickly. Its 'lead' begins

The flagella of certain bacteria constitute a molecular motor requiring the interaction of about 40 different protein parts. The flagellum (or cilium) developed from the pre-existing components of the eukaryotic cytoskeleton. In bacterial flagella, ...

Mitchell, David R. (2007), "The Evolution of Eukaryotic Cilia and Flagella as Motile and Sensory Organelles", Eukaryotic Membranes and Cytoskeleton: Origins and Evolution, Advances in Experimental Medicine and Biology, vol. 607, New York, NY: Springer, pp. 130–140, doi:10.1007/978-0-387-74021-8_11, ISBN 978-0-387-74021-8, PMC 3322410, PMID 17977465, retrieved 2023-06-25

Wickstead, Bill; Gull, Keith (2011-08-22). "The evolution of the cytoskeleton". Journal of Cell Biology. 194 (4): 513–525. doi:10.1083/jcb.201102065. ISSN 1540-8140. PMC 3160578. PMID 21859859.

and then continues with treating (mainly) bacterial flagella in more detail.

Thus, both the main article (since a long time) and the Flagella section here (at least the last few months) treat both of Behe's examples under the same heading "flagellum". They also do not distinguish between the (ubiquitus) "cilia" and the (rarer) "flagellum" (found in e. g. human sperm cells) among the eucaryotes, but consider them all as "cilia" = "eucaryotic flagella". Now, this is at most one terminological choice (see Flagellum#Terminology; and I suspect that it is not to be the most common one. I guess that the rationale for this choice was that cilia in our lungs and the flagella at our sperms are homologous, and hence do not need to be well distinguished, when we discuss their evolutionary origin. However, I suspect that a clarification could be of use for our readers.

Markbassett, you pointed out that Behe offered the bacterial flagellum and the eucaryotic cilium as two separate examples, and argue that they therefore should appear in two different sections. However, if 'your' present somewhat rudimentary section Irreducible complexity#Cilia indeed would be expanded to a full one, including the general answers by geneticists to Behe's claim, then it probably also should have either Evolution of flagella as its main article, or at least its subsection Evolution of flagella#Eucaryotic flagellum in the same rôle. I don't think that it is common to refer to the same "main article" for two different sections; but it should not be impossible, if this is what you prefer.

The alternative, which I prefer, would be to merge the two subsections Flagella and Cilia into one. It should then be necessary to change its title, e. g., to Flagella and cilia, and to start it by very explicitly stressing that this covers two different examples of Behe's. After giving Behe's bacteriological and eucaryotic exalmples, we could note that there in fact also are archaeal flagella; and that there are evolutionary explanations for all three complexes, but that they are different. (I don't know if introducing the term "nonhomologous" here would be of any help.) As for the eucaryotic variant, there could be an idea to note that the extant ones actually split into somewhat different variants, with clearly different physiologic functions and some difference in composition, but very clearly the same evolutionary source. Thus, just considering the eucaryotic cilia/flagella (including the immobile but sensitive cilia) should provide some good examples of exaptation (which IMHO is a rather relevant issue when discussing ID).

Which alternative (of these two, or some other) would you prefer? JoergenB (talk) 21:51, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

@JoergenB: - Um, more that here it was trying to do a tiny tiny tiny bit towards internal consistency. In the large sense yes, this article is titularly for the concept "Irreducible Complexity', although there is some confusion with "too complex" (which is Specified complexity), and both content and structure seems largely not about IC. For this particular tidbit of having a subsection, I was trying to have what the claimed examples section has match a bit more clearly to where the article earlier listed claimed examples. That Behe treated bacterial flagella and eucaryote cilia as different examples was relevant mostly as just a check that the article listing was not a typo. I'm not saying these are by WP:WEIGHT the main examples of claims or of discussions, just that these two are given in more than one listing as separate entries and that those listings did check out. The content of the examples subsections -- all of the subsections -- could use considerably more work on informative content. Jutst did a tiny tiny bit more on the Beetle part, though I'm again not even sure it should be here. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 14:20, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Bombardier Beetle

Anyone have more sources stating the beetle features are IC ???

Viewing the Cilia vs Flagellum area led me to seeing what else are listed as examples and for the Bombardier Beetle it was unclear about who said it was IC and where, as the cite only said Behe discussed it. So I removed the cite as insufficient for the line listing the components as IC.

I did find a replacement cite which does say components are IC, but the line phrasing of creationists (plural) state it needs either a summary cite saying so or multiple creationist works saying the components were IC. (Looking I did find Darwin's Black Box (p31) he referred to the older arguments (Gish vs Dawkins) about Bombardier Beetles, but the section I saw seemed him saying these were *not* IC since individual components had a benefit.)

I will reword the line to just 'said' as a summary of the one cited work as I do not have multiple works and not a source saying plural works say that, but if anyone comes up with more they can return it to a plural phrasing.

Cheers Markbassett (talk) 13:05, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

• p.s. If no further cites can be found, perhaps it should just be removed as UNDUE prominence and as something which predated the term IC rather than something directly in IC discussions. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 14:48, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

"Although Behe leaves open the questions of whether bombardier beetles are irreducibly complex", he devotes five pages of his Black Box to the detailed arguments before saying "All we can conclude at this point is that Darwinian evolution might have occured. If we could analyze the structural details of the beetle down to the last protein and enzyme, and if we could account for all these details with a Darwinian explanation, then we could agree with Dawkins. For now, though, we cannot tell whether the step-by-step accretions of our hypothetical evolutionary stream are single-mutation"hops" or helicopter rides between distant buttes." Implying IC remains an option. He's put online a review which says "To illustrate that life is irreducibly complex, and therefore designed, Behe takes the reader on a microscopic expedition through the following mechanisms: .... (2) bombardier beetle ballistics, ...". He's not the only IC proponent, the cite you've added (but not formatted properly) is a paper by Andrew McIntosh (physicist) which "is primarily concerning the physics of the beetle valve system and shows that it is irreducibly complex and marvelously designed." These points should be shown . . dave souza, talk 10:44, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

User:Dave souza Um, I think that where Behe is quoted as saying something might have evolved is pretty clearly him saying that part is not IC. "All we can conclude at this point is that Darwinian evolution might have occured." It then has him asserting it cannot be determined whether the steps were single-mutation hops or helicopter rides -- but either way is saying the mechanism is an endpoint of steps, which is to say reducible. Anyway, it all simply lacks him saying the word "irreducible" so that doesn't serve as a support for "irreducible complexity" being said about it.

The further quote from a review about the Behe book "Darwin's Black Box" is from Thane Hutcherson Ury saying "Behe takes the reader on a microscopic expedition through the following mechanisms: (1) the marvels of vision, (2) bombardier beetle ballistics, (3) bacterial flagella, (4) the blood clotting process, (5) intracellular transport, and (6) disease immunity. These each display different aspects of irreducible complexity, molecular cascading, and symbiosis of biochemical systems, and veto Darwinian gradualism in that natural selection is emasculated; that is, the incipient stages cannot even be conceptualised, much less in a way that would confer selective advantage." But where within vision, beetle, etcetera that Ury thinks Behe said some aspect of irreducible complexity is not stated. Ury is asserting that each displays different aspects of those Intelligent Design concepts, and not stating that each in entirety is IC. It's hard to see that short remark review of places Behe found ID aspects as much of a declaration for the beetle as a whole, particularly when the other items are not listed as such. (For example, the article already mentions Behe acknowledged that the evolution of the larger anatomical features of the eye have been well-explained, and that Behe was pointing to light sensitivity - then the article detours to a note re Safarti and about a page re the larger anatomical features.) The Ury review later identifies the Box section about the beetle beetle defence as requiring at least six steps and "Behe does not even have to elaborate on the (at least) four metabolic processes simultaneously taking place, nor mention other anatomical support, or the crucial aspect of synchronisation, etc.". This section of the review still lacks any declaration of "irreducible". Anyway, the Ury list quote is just a brief line in a remote book review rather than prolonged and prominent mentions by ID proponents, so I am still not seeing beetles as having enough WP:WEIGHT to give as an IC posterchild here, and not seeing any specifics that could be used for article content to detail what is being asserted as IC. It all just seems more a bit of Creation Science legacy that somehow got misplaced here. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 06:43, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Removing section

User:Dave souza - Ok, its been awhile and since beetles are simply not an IC poster child, nor new info arrived since above discussion, I think I’m going to remove the section now. That leaves 4 examples shown of blood clotting, eye, flagella, and cilium. Those seem more clearly examples (i.e. stated by Behe), the ones that are prominent (though cilium is much less so than flagella) and likely 4 is enough for article to convey the concept and kinds of things Behe talked about. (The immune system is also mentioned as an example, but this thread is just discussing the apparent oddity of highlighting beetles as an example.) Cheers Markbassett (talk) 13:23, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Apparently Duane Gish considered these beetles to be an example of irreducible complexity. He may have overstated his case, according to some other creationists. IMO that looks like enough due weight to keep the section. Just plain Bill (talk) 13:55, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

User:Just plain Bill - Mmm ... Can you show the something where you have Gish saying these beetles are "an example of irreducible complexity" ? Or just show something citeable with WEIGHT from any source ? If you're just finding a blog I think that should be kind of convincing you the other way.

Gish was saying the beetle as a challenge to evolution in the 1960s, and a 1981 Weber rebuttal published by NCSE is long before Behe in 1996 started stating a concept of "Irreducible complexity". I'm just not finding WP:V support of Gish coming back to say the beetle is IC, or otherwise prominent creationists or publications using the Beetle as an example of IC, in things that would have WEIGHT and be citeable to support the article language or even having this section.

The link ["according to some other creationists"] is just a short 4-screen blog of Kyle Pope criticising Weber among his many spiritual (non-Evolution) posts. It's not a published item, nor a person of note in this topic. I can similarly find another blog of Dan Story similarly mentions the beetle as IC. With no offense to them, they're just a couple of guys.

RSVP, cheers Markbassett (talk) 01:19, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

OK, how about The beetle demonstrates irreducible complexity... from the Proceedings of the International Conference on Creationism, "a collection of peer-reviewed technical papers... from a young earth perspective." Doesn't mention Gish, doesn't need to. Just plain Bill (talk) 20:15, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

User:Just plain Bill - Do you have any *others* was the question - "Anyone have more sources stating the beetle features are IC ???". That article from the 8th ICC is the only cite that has been supporting it, and while it is citeable it is also just one not very noted publication from a less prominent advocate Andy McIntosh, professor of thermodynamics and Truth in Science director who did research on the beetle thermodynamics. So it was said and a few places reported that, but it seems WP:UNDUE prominence to show this as if it was a common or famous example. It also doesn't seem to me to be wonderfully illustrating the concept of Irreducible Complexity. Reading the content, he is saying many parts working in harmony then asserts that means IC -- but that is more a Watchmaker analogy than talking about how it is not reducible. In comparison, the Cilium example is also infrequent and might also get removed - but at least it has Behe in a notable book mentioning it.

So, know of any other cites saying the beetle is IC ? Cheers Markbassett (talk) 13:35, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

The talk.origins archive has a densely packed section on the bombardier beetle. Anyone questioning its status as a poster child for irreducible complexity either hasn't been paying attention, or is wilfully sticking fingers in ears, going LALALALALAAA and refusing to acknowledge the consilience of commentary on the subject. Just plain Bill (talk) 14:11, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

User:Just plain Bill That is already cited in the next line and would only support ‘taxonomist Mark Isaak said “Behe leaves open the questions of whether bombardier beetles are irreducibly complex”. ‘ Isaak seems to feel that a line Gish wrote in 1961 sounds like IC — but that little bit of WEIGHT was already here and he isn’t directly saying it is IC, it’s just seeming like in his 6 pages of text he has a line where he felt Gish in 1961 was saying something like what is later called IC.

So with me and apparently nobody else able to find new cites, let alone frequent or prominent ones, this section still appears WP:UNDUE to show as an example of IC. The question still remains "Anyone have more sources stating the beetle features are IC ???" But looking like neither I nor others are able to find much. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 09:49, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

This one has been a ref in the beetles' article for a while: Behe's examples of irreducibly complex systems include vision in a retinal cell; the explosive defense mechanisms of the bombardier beetle; cilia and flagella... Just plain Bill (talk) 18:22, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

User:Just plain Bill that seems much more useful where it was stating its sourcing so maybe leads to some new cite. That claim in the Encyclopedia of Evolution references it as their summary from Behes Darwin’s Black Box (1996). This also led me to the Creationism and Anti-creationism (2018) review saying he was criticising the 1986 Dawkins piece, earlier criticised by Denton in Evolution: a theory in crisis (1986). So it’s pointing into a history of a few prominent pieces going back and forth. I’ll try to find out what Behe actually said in Black box to see if there is something citeable. I could find Behes 2001 A Response to Reviews of Darwin’s Black Box, but it doesn’t mention beetles. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:53, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

User:Just plain Bill Nope, Darwins Black Box did not show Behe claiming the beetles were IC. Actually looking in Darwin's Black Box, Part 1 (p31-36) he mentioned exchanges between The Neck of the Giraffe (Francis Hitching, 1982) and The Blind Watchmaker (Dawkins, 1996). Hitchings saying that hydrogen peroxide and hydroquinine explode when mixed, and Dawkins saying that is quite simply false. Behe remarks "The problem with the above "debate" is that both sides are talking past each other. One side gets its facts wrong, the other side merely corrects the facts." He did write that not all 6 parts are needed for the function of the system (hence he is saying this is *not* irreducible), that hydroquinine alone is noxious to predators, and he mentions a series of steps that might lead to the fully developed bombadier beetle. But he then says both this does not explain the details and that it is mere speculation. He concludes with what User:Dave Souza already mentioned above. "All we can conclude at this point is that Darwinian evolution might have occured. If we could analyze the structural details of the beetle down to the last protein and enzyme, and if we could account for all these details with a Darwinian explanation, then we could agree with Dawkins. For now, though, we cannot tell whether the step-by-step accretions of our hypothetical evolutionary stream are single-mutation"hops" or helicopter rides between distant buttes." In either case, he is describing it as the difficulty of what the steps are to this complex system, not as something irreducible. The mention in the Encyclopedia of Evolution referenced as their summary from Behes Darwin's Black Box (1996) does note "Behe admits other beetles have similar, and simpler, systems of defense". Their line on the same page Behe's examples of irreducibly complex systems include vision in a retinal cell; the explosive defense mechanisms of the bombardier beetle; cilia and flagella... was just incorrectly phrased so conflating the examples of discussions (the beetle and the eye) with the 5 chapters Behe says on page 47 are the examples of irreducibly complex (cilium, blood clotting, vesicular transport, immune system, and biosynthesis.

So, seeing claims this proves creation -- but not claims this is IC. Still thinking this should have deletion. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 20:58, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

User:Just plain Bill - OK, so since both Dawkins and Behe noted it as a historical dispute of "creationists" and Gish as saying it "could not have evolved", I have edited that line in Bombardier Beetle to use their Dawkins cite's wording and term "creationists" - 'creationists say could not have evolved'. The Encyclopedia of Evolution seems to have misspoke in disagreement to the recounting of both Dawkins (more authoritative and direct participant) and Behe's (more authoritative about IC and creationist POV, and the book Encyclopedia was reviewing) actually said in their online and books. Dawkins seems to have felt this would be something they meant by IC but he is not saying creationists actually said such. So the line that creationists say it is IC is not supported. I could add the cite to Behe's book Darwin's Black Box but think that would be contentious and is unnecessary. I will look to see if you comment back and expect to delete the beetle section here shortly, hoping to make the article more concise and erase the oops. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 03:31, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

All -- it's been awhile again and no more cites for the thread "Anyone have more sources stating the beetle features are IC ???" So unless someone comes in with some in the next day or so, I will finally remove the section as UNDUE, it's just not comparable to the mousetrap as something prominently said and a part of the now-historical IC disputes nor a good match to the concept. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:28, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Comparative genomics in lead ???

Anyone have further sources stating comparative genomics relates here ? I’m not seeing why it is there or how it relates.

The lead paragraph 3 ends with “examples documented through comparative genomics show that complex molecular systems are formed by the addition of components as revealed by different temporal origins of their proteins.”

But there is not any article body content related to this so it seems not prominent enough to be in WP:LEAD, and the relationship is not clear from just that lead mention. The two cites attached are not about IC nor used elsewhere, so it seems like a side remark that someone felt rebutted Behe, but how or where is unclear from just the content in lead. So... is anyone able to expand in body, and does it really belong as a lead item ?

Cheers Markbassett (talk) 13:59, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

p.s. The edit was inserted long ago by an IP, from back when the lead was simply two short paras of (1) IC definition and (2) strongly rejected. Here seems the origin. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 14:14, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

• It's been a long time and nobody has explained how this relates, nor have I been able to google up linking of comparative genomics to irreducible complexity. The topic seems to talk about it shows complexity developing over time, which is fine for evolution but has no relationship to the notion of what state would be the lowest or irreducible complexity - the point where removal of one more thing would mean no function. Without any significant content about comparative genomics in the body, I cannot understand what it even is but can say it does not belong in the LEAD per WP:LEAD guidance that the lead should summarize the major content of the article. Nor does is the prominence in Lead justified by WP:WEIGHT amount of coverage. So I will remove the line. I would shift it to wherever it fit lower down, but as it has no obvious meaning to me I can only delete it. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 05:14, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Remove LEAD para 2?

The second para of the LEAD doesn’t seem to fit well to this article. It does not seem to be summarizing a major part of the body and not clear if it is talking more about Specified complexity (where it says “too improbable” and “too complex”) or the overall Intelligent design where it is talking the ID term source. I thought I would ask if this para can simply be removed.

“The central concept, of biological complexity too improbable to have evolved by chance natural processes, was already featured in creation science. The 1989 school textbook Of Pandas and People introduced the alternative terminology of intelligent design, the 1993 edition was revised to include a variation of the same argument: it was later shown that these revisions were written by Michael Behe, a professor of biochemistry at Lehigh University.”

Cheers Markbassett (talk) 17:00, 2 December 2024 (UTC) Markbassett (talk) 17:00, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

• Well, it has been a bit more than a month with no objection or alternative, so I will simply go ahead and remove the second para. Just seems a confusion into Specified complexity got interjected from earlier versions (e.g. a few years ago here). Maybe more revision (or reversion) would be good, but I'll limit this edit to just the topic of this thread and only remove the off-topic second para. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 15:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)